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Steve/Aus
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 Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 7:05 am Post subject: High Expectations! |
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I have just been asked to quote on a job (we are label printers). 14
types of 1000 each. It has been stressed that colour matching up to specific
values must be 100% exact. It is a CMYK job of cartoon like characaters on
coloured backgrounds. For example, green *has* to be C58, M2, Y99, K0. Other
than the fact I don't think we can hold 2% magenta and who's to know the
difference between 99% and 100%, what am I supposed to compare these colours
to? Her monitor perhaps?
Secondly, how do you take into consideration the colour of the stock. No
stock is pure white, quite often it has a yellow or grayish tint. Some
stocks have optical brighteners in the coating. These drastically alter the
cyan values. And, pigments used in printing inks from different
manufacturers will also produce different results, irrespective of what
standards are in place to ensure colour consistancy between them.
After all that lot which is outside of our control, then you just got
expose a plate for 5% longer or shorter and that will alter values. Very
slight contamination from previous inks on the rollers, inks becoming more
viscous after the rollers warm up, and it goes on and on etc.
I did quote the job, but stated I wanted a hard copy colour chart
supplied by her to match to. Even then, because of paper colour etc. I might
get the (for example) green to look perfect but the reds or purples are off
and so on. It's a headache waiting to happen. |
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Dave Balderstone
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 7:10 am Post subject: Re: High Expectations! |
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In article <ds92i.38040$M.21287@news-server.bigpond.net.au>, Steve/Aus
<adlab@bigponddotnetdotau.trashthisbit> wrote:
| Quote: |
I have just been asked to quote on a job (we are label printers). 14
types of 1000 each. It has been stressed that colour matching up to specific
values must be 100% exact. It is a CMYK job of cartoon like characaters on
coloured backgrounds. For example, green *has* to be C58, M2, Y99, K0. Other
than the fact I don't think we can hold 2% magenta and who's to know the
difference between 99% and 100%, what am I supposed to compare these colours
to? Her monitor perhaps?
Secondly, how do you take into consideration the colour of the stock. No
stock is pure white, quite often it has a yellow or grayish tint. Some
stocks have optical brighteners in the coating. These drastically alter the
cyan values. And, pigments used in printing inks from different
manufacturers will also produce different results, irrespective of what
standards are in place to ensure colour consistancy between them.
After all that lot which is outside of our control, then you just got
expose a plate for 5% longer or shorter and that will alter values. Very
slight contamination from previous inks on the rollers, inks becoming more
viscous after the rollers warm up, and it goes on and on etc.
I did quote the job, but stated I wanted a hard copy colour chart
supplied by her to match to. Even then, because of paper colour etc. I might
get the (for example) green to look perfect but the reds or purples are off
and so on. It's a headache waiting to happen.
|
I would have recommended a competitor...
--
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
Pass it on... |
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Eric
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 11:13 am Post subject: Re: High Expectations! |
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Dave Balderstone wrote:
| Quote: |
In article <ds92i.38040$M.21287@news-server.bigpond.net.au>, Steve/Aus
adlab@bigponddotnetdotau.trashthisbit> wrote:
I have just been asked to quote on a job (we are label printers). 14
types of 1000 each. It has been stressed that colour matching up to
specific values must be 100% exact. It is a CMYK job of cartoon like
characaters on coloured backgrounds. For example, green *has* to be C58,
M2, Y99, K0. Other than the fact I don't think we can hold 2% magenta and
who's to know the difference between 99% and 100%, what am I supposed to
compare these colours to? Her monitor perhaps?
Secondly, how do you take into consideration the colour of the stock.
No
stock is pure white, quite often it has a yellow or grayish tint. Some
stocks have optical brighteners in the coating. These drastically alter
the cyan values. And, pigments used in printing inks from different
manufacturers will also produce different results, irrespective of what
standards are in place to ensure colour consistancy between them.
After all that lot which is outside of our control, then you just got
expose a plate for 5% longer or shorter and that will alter values. Very
slight contamination from previous inks on the rollers, inks becoming
more viscous after the rollers warm up, and it goes on and on etc.
I did quote the job, but stated I wanted a hard copy colour chart
supplied by her to match to. Even then, because of paper colour etc. I
might get the (for example) green to look perfect but the reds or purples
are off and so on. It's a headache waiting to happen.
I would have recommended a competitor...
|
Ditto, unless this client has any positive attributes. Is she trainable?
--
Eric |
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Gene Palmiter
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 7:50 pm Post subject: Re: High Expectations! |
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It cannot be done with CMYK...that's why spot colors are still necessary in
printing. Often cartoons and corporate logos are designed with spot
colors...its because they have to be exact. If the designer would design
with spot colors for those areas that are critical and accept that those
areas that use halftones to simulate a color (like a green background) might
not be exact s/he might get acceptable results. S/he will then have to plan
on printing with 4 or 6 colors depending on the press. It puts a lot of
pressure on the designer to do it this way...which is why we don't see it
very often.
"Eric" <eric@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:Q4d2i.20203$8E.9670@newsfe5-win.ntli.net...
| Quote: |
Dave Balderstone wrote:
In article <ds92i.38040$M.21287@news-server.bigpond.net.au>, Steve/Aus
adlab@bigponddotnetdotau.trashthisbit> wrote:
I have just been asked to quote on a job (we are label printers). 14
types of 1000 each. It has been stressed that colour matching up to
specific values must be 100% exact. It is a CMYK job of cartoon like
characaters on coloured backgrounds. For example, green *has* to be C58,
M2, Y99, K0. Other than the fact I don't think we can hold 2% magenta
and
who's to know the difference between 99% and 100%, what am I supposed to
compare these colours to? Her monitor perhaps?
Secondly, how do you take into consideration the colour of the
stock.
No
stock is pure white, quite often it has a yellow or grayish tint. Some
stocks have optical brighteners in the coating. These drastically alter
the cyan values. And, pigments used in printing inks from different
manufacturers will also produce different results, irrespective of what
standards are in place to ensure colour consistancy between them.
After all that lot which is outside of our control, then you just
got
expose a plate for 5% longer or shorter and that will alter values. Very
slight contamination from previous inks on the rollers, inks becoming
more viscous after the rollers warm up, and it goes on and on etc.
I did quote the job, but stated I wanted a hard copy colour chart
supplied by her to match to. Even then, because of paper colour etc. I
might get the (for example) green to look perfect but the reds or
purples
are off and so on. It's a headache waiting to happen.
I would have recommended a competitor...
Ditto, unless this client has any positive attributes. Is she trainable?
--
Eric |
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Lee Blevins
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 2:26 am Post subject: Re: High Expectations! |
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Steve/Aus <adlab@bigponddotnetdotau.trashthisbit> wrote:
| Quote: |
I have just been asked to quote on a job (we are label printers). 14
types of 1000 each. It has been stressed that colour matching up to specific
values must be 100% exact. It is a CMYK job of cartoon like characaters on
coloured backgrounds. For example, green *has* to be C58, M2, Y99, K0. Other
than the fact I don't think we can hold 2% magenta and who's to know the
difference between 99% and 100%, what am I supposed to compare these colours
to? Her monitor perhaps?
Secondly, how do you take into consideration the colour of the stock. No
stock is pure white, quite often it has a yellow or grayish tint. Some
stocks have optical brighteners in the coating. These drastically alter the
cyan values. And, pigments used in printing inks from different
manufacturers will also produce different results, irrespective of what
standards are in place to ensure colour consistancy between them.
After all that lot which is outside of our control, then you just got
expose a plate for 5% longer or shorter and that will alter values. Very
slight contamination from previous inks on the rollers, inks becoming more
viscous after the rollers warm up, and it goes on and on etc.
I did quote the job, but stated I wanted a hard copy colour chart
supplied by her to match to. Even then, because of paper colour etc. I might
get the (for example) green to look perfect but the reds or purples are off
and so on. It's a headache waiting to happen.
Being a cartoon there are probably a limited number of actual colors in |
the job.
You need to ask the client to make a swatch sheet of the colors.
Proof that, or print it to get an ok before you start.
What is of greater concern is that the client doesn't apparently
understand the process they are using.
To ask a label printer to hold a 2% dot in a highlight would indicate
that this person is not technically advanced.
But one thing is for sure. There are few processes that would be able to
hold that reliably. It's generally a bad idea to rely on a 2% in a color
and it would indicate that whoever is doing it is customer from hell and
surely will want to make your life miserable.
You need a sitdown with the client to discuss the realities of dot
reproduction in your plating process. |
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Steve/Aus
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 3:08 am Post subject: Re: High Expectations! |
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"Lee Blevins" <leeb@digitalgraphics.net> wrote in message
news:1hy630y.1rx19z04geep8N%leeb@digitalgraphics.net...
| Quote: |
Steve/Aus <adlab@bigponddotnetdotau.trashthisbit> wrote:
Being a cartoon there are probably a limited number of actual colors in
the job.
You need to ask the client to make a swatch sheet of the colors.
Proof that, or print it to get an ok before you start.
What is of greater concern is that the client doesn't apparently
understand the process they are using.
To ask a label printer to hold a 2% dot in a highlight would indicate
that this person is not technically advanced.
But one thing is for sure. There are few processes that would be able to
hold that reliably. It's generally a bad idea to rely on a 2% in a color
and it would indicate that whoever is doing it is customer from hell and
surely will want to make your life miserable.
You need a sitdown with the client to discuss the realities of dot
reproduction in your plating process.
|
I agree with all the replies. It is just so difficult sometimes though. It's
a government department and working my way through the hierarchical chain is
a nightmare in itself, there are just too many people involved in a simple
project. Spot colour is the way to go or use simple CMYK values such as
100M, 100Y for red etc.
I think I'll just knock this one on the head.
Steve W (in Aus) |
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creativechaos
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| Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 9:36 pm Post subject: Re: High Expectations! |
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The thing about group decision making is that you need to use group decision
tools to help you get realistic specifications.
I suggest providing the group with some options for getting what they want
within the budget they are imposing. In other words, they need to buy into
the limitations of the project.
Zero in on realistic specs rather than allowing yourself to be boxed into
guaranteed failure. What I mean by this... Give your customers different
options based on cost rather than stating that something is unrealistic or
can't be done. I find it fascinating how requirements change and concessions
made when you bring in the cost/time factor.
For example, as mentioned in this thread, paper will significantly impact
the subjective / objective design parameters for the job. You also didn't
mention the kind of light under which the decision makers will evaluate the
quality of the print job.
What you have here is a selling challenge rather than a technical challenge.
You must control expectations if you want a positive outcome. Controlling
expectations means educating and setting a cost - quality - time framework.
Choose any two out of these...
I don't know how far you are into finalizing the design so it is very
difficult to suggest a course of action that fits your situation. The only
thing I can suggest is to use cost to manage expectations. For example, for
a very tight screen, mention that a very bright white coated paper will have
to be specified (pick the most expensive coated paper that will maximize the
potential for success). Also mention that the press run will probably need
to be 3 - 5 times the desired finished quantity to allow for a lot of
tweaking on the press. Also mention that the key decision makers need to
show up for a press check so that the press can be tweaked to get the output
they desire.
As others mentioned. Specifiy spot colors for the critical objects in the
artwork that must be spot on. You are now talking about a 6 color or more
high quality press. Do mention the tolerances that such presses are able to
achieve and make sure to factor in the tolerances of all equipment used to
judge the quality of the job. Also specify the temperature of the light
under which the colors will be evaluated.
Ask for more time to complete the job. Quality requires experienced press
operators. The "prima donna" who can get the job done will probably be
booked so factor this into the schedule.
Technology today allows for setting criteria that are much more objective.
Do use the tools that your customer is comfortable with.
Now if money is no object then you have a very interesting and challenging
project. Don't forget to charge for the additional staff you will need to
baby the project from conception to delivery.
There are no customers from hell... Only people unwilling or unable to work
out a mutually realistic set of parameters for mutual success.
This costs money and if you're unwilling to tack on these costs to the job
then you may want to walk away...
Just a few thoughts.
J.P. From Tacoma.
On 5/15/07 4:08 PM, in article
24r2i.38432$M.33981@news-server.bigpond.net.au, "Steve/Aus"
<adlab@bigponddotnetdotau.trashthisbit> wrote:
| Quote: |
"Lee Blevins" <leeb@digitalgraphics.net> wrote in message
news:1hy630y.1rx19z04geep8N%leeb@digitalgraphics.net...
Steve/Aus <adlab@bigponddotnetdotau.trashthisbit> wrote:
Being a cartoon there are probably a limited number of actual colors in
the job.
You need to ask the client to make a swatch sheet of the colors.
Proof that, or print it to get an ok before you start.
What is of greater concern is that the client doesn't apparently
understand the process they are using.
To ask a label printer to hold a 2% dot in a highlight would indicate
that this person is not technically advanced.
But one thing is for sure. There are few processes that would be able to
hold that reliably. It's generally a bad idea to rely on a 2% in a color
and it would indicate that whoever is doing it is customer from hell and
surely will want to make your life miserable.
You need a sitdown with the client to discuss the realities of dot
reproduction in your plating process.
I agree with all the replies. It is just so difficult sometimes though. It's
a government department and working my way through the hierarchical chain is
a nightmare in itself, there are just too many people involved in a simple
project. Spot colour is the way to go or use simple CMYK values such as
100M, 100Y for red etc.
I think I'll just knock this one on the head.
Steve W (in Aus)
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Cyprus
Guest
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| Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 1:08 pm Post subject: Re: High Expectations! |
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That's very true, and the important thing is to see customer attitude.
and if you have tools to measure such as spectrometer, and can ask
them to give you i.e 5% tolerability, it would be easier for you. You
dont have to argue color based on subjectivity.
Hero Kao |
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Lee Blevins
Guest
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| Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 2:58 am Post subject: Re: High Expectations! |
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Steve/Aus <adlab@bigponddotnetdotau.trashthisbit> wrote:
| Quote: |
"Lee Blevins" <leeb@digitalgraphics.net> wrote in message
news:1hy630y.1rx19z04geep8N%leeb@digitalgraphics.net...
Steve/Aus <adlab@bigponddotnetdotau.trashthisbit> wrote:
Being a cartoon there are probably a limited number of actual colors in
the job.
You need to ask the client to make a swatch sheet of the colors.
Proof that, or print it to get an ok before you start.
What is of greater concern is that the client doesn't apparently
understand the process they are using.
To ask a label printer to hold a 2% dot in a highlight would indicate
that this person is not technically advanced.
But one thing is for sure. There are few processes that would be able to
hold that reliably. It's generally a bad idea to rely on a 2% in a color
and it would indicate that whoever is doing it is customer from hell and
surely will want to make your life miserable.
You need a sitdown with the client to discuss the realities of dot
reproduction in your plating process.
I agree with all the replies. It is just so difficult sometimes though. It's
a government department and working my way through the hierarchical chain is
a nightmare in itself, there are just too many people involved in a simple
project. Spot colour is the way to go or use simple CMYK values such as
100M, 100Y for red etc.
I think I'll just knock this one on the head.
Steve W (in Aus)
|
Time is money.
When they turn into problem jobs, drop them and find work that fits. |
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Papa Joe
Guest
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 4:39 am Post subject: Re: High Expectations! |
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On 2007-05-18 19:58:12 -0300, leeb@digitalgraphics.net (Lee Blevins) said:
| Quote: |
Steve/Aus <adlab@bigponddotnetdotau.trashthisbit> wrote:
"Lee Blevins" <leeb@digitalgraphics.net> wrote in message
news:1hy630y.1rx19z04geep8N%leeb@digitalgraphics.net...
Steve/Aus <adlab@bigponddotnetdotau.trashthisbit> wrote:
Being a cartoon there are probably a limited number of actual colors in
the job.
You need to ask the client to make a swatch sheet of the colors.
Proof that, or print it to get an ok before you start.
What is of greater concern is that the client doesn't apparently
understand the process they are using.
To ask a label printer to hold a 2% dot in a highlight would indicate
that this person is not technically advanced.
But one thing is for sure. There are few processes that would be able to
hold that reliably. It's generally a bad idea to rely on a 2% in a color
and it would indicate that whoever is doing it is customer from hell and
surely will want to make your life miserable.
You need a sitdown with the client to discuss the realities of dot
reproduction in your plating process.
I agree with all the replies. It is just so difficult sometimes though. It's
a government department and working my way through the hierarchical chain is
a nightmare in itself, there are just too many people involved in a simple
project. Spot colour is the way to go or use simple CMYK values such as
100M, 100Y for red etc.
I think I'll just knock this one on the head.
Steve W (in Aus)
Time is money.
When they turn into problem jobs, drop them and find work that fits.
|
Getting into details with a client that has no experience,
is in fact going to be a JOB IN ITSELF TO TEACH THEM.
They will not understand 90% of what you are saying and will nod their
heads as if they do.
Be prepared to teach or drop the job.
--
Welcome to Papa Joe's |
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