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Mike Koewler
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 Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 10:45 pm Post subject: Is this fair or what? |
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As you may know, I am a publisher, not a printer. I hire a company to
print my newspaper. Like everyone else, their prices have skyrocketed in
the last year, going up more than 20 percent.
I asked for and received a new price sheet, then two weeks later get a
bill. Instead of it being for $807 as expected, it is for $1,150 - $350
more.
I talked with the rep, who seems to have the IQ of a tomato seed, and he
insists the bill is correct, that printing four extra pages raises the
cost from $723 to $1050.
Anyone know of a decent printer close to the Cincinnati market?
Mike |
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Just Joe
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 3:52 am Post subject: Re: Is this fair or what? |
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Its funny to me that you refer to the printers rep as someone "who seems to
have the IQ of a tomato seed" and at the same time you expect an intelligent
response to this question. A lot more details would help. For example if you
were paying $723 to get an 8 page printed you were paying $90.375 per page
so an extra 4 pages would be 12 pages and that would be $1084.50 @90.375 a
page. So I would say you got a good deal he gave you a $34.50 discount on
the extra 4 pages but then again I just made a lot of assumptions didn't I
Joe
"Mike Koewler" <wordwiz@fuse.net> wrote in message
news:65c1e$46718cb3$42a1f80a$24229@FUSE.NET...
| Quote: |
As you may know, I am a publisher, not a printer. I hire a company to
print my newspaper. Like everyone else, their prices have skyrocketed in
the last year, going up more than 20 percent.
I asked for and received a new price sheet, then two weeks later get a
bill. Instead of it being for $807 as expected, it is for $1,150 - $350
more.
I talked with the rep, who seems to have the IQ of a tomato seed, and he
insists the bill is correct, that printing four extra pages raises the
cost from $723 to $1050.
Anyone know of a decent printer close to the Cincinnati market?
Mike |
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Tim Monk
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 6:10 am Post subject: Re: Is this fair or what? |
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On 6/14/07 1:45 PM, "Mike Koewler" wrote:
| Quote: |
As you may know, I am a publisher, not a printer. I hire a company to
print my newspaper. Like everyone else, their prices have skyrocketed in
the last year, going up more than 20 percent.
|
Really? That's surprising to hear! I'm in the commercial offset environment,
and in my geographic location competition is driving prices threw the
ground. In my experience, print shops are cutting their profits just to get
the work they want. I hear sales reps give away their commission to get the
customer's foot in the door. I've worked in several shops that would lose
money on a job just to make a good impression on a potentially profitable
customer.
I don't know anything about publishing a newspaper, but I can tell you that
if a commercial offset shop was jacking up their prices by 20% (at least in
my area), they're trying to get rid of a customer. That's the only time I've
ever seen a print shop NOT cater to the customer. It's called "firing the
customer". I've seen this happen when the customer is either incredibly
unrealistic, or a waste of the print shop's time, meaning profitless or
costly. In this case, I call it fair.
I hope that's not what's happened to you! ;)
| Quote: |
I asked for and received a new price sheet, then two weeks later get a
bill. Instead of it being for $807 as expected, it is for $1,150 - $350
more.
I talked with the rep, who seems to have the IQ of a tomato seed, and he
insists the bill is correct, that printing four extra pages raises the
cost from $723 to $1050.
|
Did you even try to go above his head? Trust me when I tell you that your
"rep" is probably not the smartest person in the building. You can count
your bottom dollar on that one. I work with those yahoos--sales reps...
Anyway...
If I were in your situation, I'd certainly try to speak with someone in
management. If that's not possible, then it's pretty clear that they don't
want you as a customer, anyway. Go somewhere else. Simple.
| Quote: |
Anyone know of a decent printer close to the Cincinnati market?
|
Does location really matter? Deliveries move across this country so fast I
sometimes have trouble believing it!
I'd give you my shop's number if I wasn't afraid that you were a
problem-child customer. We don't print newspapers, anyway.
There's no way anyone here can tell you if your situation is fair or not.
Not without much more information. Sounds to me like you're bending
everything in your favor by leaving out very important details.
Devil's in the details. Sounds fair so far.....
More to go on??
Tim |
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Mike Koewler
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 6:35 am Post subject: Re: Is this fair or what? |
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Joe,
Sorry - another instance of I know what I mean, everyone should.
Here's the breakdown in prices:
PROCESS: FRONT BACK – CENTER 16 PAGES BASE PRICE $574.05
ADDITIONAL M’s $82.32 20 PAGES BASE PRICE $656.65 ADDITIONAL
M’s $98.24 24 PAGES BASE PRICE $700.73 ADDITIONAL M’s $107.57 28
PAGES BASE PRICE $779.75 ADDITIONAL M’s $120.59 32 PAGES BASE
PRICE $827.45 ADDITIONAL M’s $133.68
PROCESS: 8 PAGES
16 PAGES BASE PRICE $663.41 ADDITIONAL M’s $ 85.02 20 PAGES BASE
PRICE $747.20 ADDITIONAL M’s $100.96 24 PAGES BASE PRICE $791.80
ADDITIONAL M’s $110.29 28 PAGES BASE PRICE $871.83 ADDITIONAL M’s
$123.31 32 PAGES BASE PRICE $920.01 ADDITIONAL M’s $136.41
DELIVERY: $60.00
IOW, I was expecting to get a bill for $807, since I printed 20 pages
that week. Normally, I pay $634 for 16 pages, but I use color on only
four pages instead of eight. Adding four pages (two were in color but
that might as well as well be four)jumped the cost from $634 (including
delivery) to $1050.
The bottom line is the price should be $807.20, not $1,050. Had he just
said that I was getting a sweetheart of a deal and my rates would be
higher in the future, I would not and cannot have a beef - look for a
better deal, yes, but not have a beef. But to send me a price sheet
saying this is what our new rates are, then to turn around and charge me
30 percent more - no, IMO, this isn't fair. And it will be a sub-zero
day in July in Cincinnati before I'll pay this fee.
Mike
Just Joe wrote:
| Quote: |
Its funny to me that you refer to the printers rep as someone "who seems to
have the IQ of a tomato seed" and at the same time you expect an intelligent
response to this question. A lot more details would help. For example if you
were paying $723 to get an 8 page printed you were paying $90.375 per page
so an extra 4 pages would be 12 pages and that would be $1084.50 @90.375 a
page. So I would say you got a good deal he gave you a $34.50 discount on
the extra 4 pages but then again I just made a lot of assumptions didn't I
Joe
"Mike Koewler" <wordwiz@fuse.net> wrote in message
news:65c1e$46718cb3$42a1f80a$24229@FUSE.NET...
As you may know, I am a publisher, not a printer. I hire a company to
print my newspaper. Like everyone else, their prices have skyrocketed in
the last year, going up more than 20 percent.
I asked for and received a new price sheet, then two weeks later get a
bill. Instead of it being for $807 as expected, it is for $1,150 - $350
more.
I talked with the rep, who seems to have the IQ of a tomato seed, and he
insists the bill is correct, that printing four extra pages raises the
cost from $723 to $1050.
Anyone know of a decent printer close to the Cincinnati market?
Mike
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Dave Balderstone
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 6:39 am Post subject: Re: Is this fair or what? |
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In article <C2975F63.7398%tmonk@austin.rr.com>, Tim Monk
<tmonk@austin.rr.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
Devil's in the details. Sounds fair so far.....
More to go on??
|
Indeed...
Mike:
How many pages is your newspaper? How many flats are 4C, how many flats
are black only? Were the 4 pages 4C or other?
Does adding 4 pages to your paper mean the printer is adding a half
web, or is it being printed on a half web press?
How many signatures? Did adding 4 pages add a signature? What's the
capacity of the press?
What's the press run?
As an example, we're a tab size weekly running between 72 and 156
pages, depending on season. We run 30" (full web) and 15" (half web) 45
gsm newsprint with a 22 3/4" cutoff (so our folded size is 15" tall and
11 3/8" wide, sort of -- our cover sig is folded with a lip).
We go up or down in 8 page increments, where 16 pages is a full web and
8 pages is a half web.
The largest signature we can run 4C throughout is 32 pages. Color
demands affect the number of sigs we run.
We run about 70,000 copies.
To go from an 80 page paper to 88 pages (add 8 pages) for us is about
$1900 CAD. To keep the same page count and go from 2 signatures to 3
(because of color demands) is about $3200 CAD.
Without knowing a LOT more about your newspaper, there's no way to
advise you. |
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Dave Balderstone
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 6:44 am Post subject: Re: Is this fair or what? |
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In article <516cc$4671fac7$42a1f80a$12163@FUSE.NET>, Mike Koewler
<wordwiz@fuse.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
Joe,
Sorry - another instance of I know what I mean, everyone should.
Here's the breakdown in prices:
PROCESS: FRONT BACK ö CENTER 16 PAGES BASE PRICE $574.05
ADDITIONAL Mâs $82.32 20 PAGES BASE PRICE $656.65 ADDITIONAL
Mâs $98.24 24 PAGES BASE PRICE $700.73 ADDITIONAL Mâs $107.57
28
PAGES BASE PRICE $779.75 ADDITIONAL Mâs $120.59 32 PAGES BASE
PRICE $827.45 ADDITIONAL Mâs $133.68
PROCESS: 8 PAGES
16 PAGES BASE PRICE $663.41 ADDITIONAL Mâs $ 85.02 20 PAGES BASE
PRICE $747.20 ADDITIONAL Mâs $100.96 24 PAGES BASE PRICE $791.80
ADDITIONAL Mâs $110.29 28 PAGES BASE PRICE $871.83 ADDITIONAL
Mâs
$123.31 32 PAGES BASE PRICE $920.01 ADDITIONAL Mâs $136.41
DELIVERY: $60.00
IOW, I was expecting to get a bill for $807, since I printed 20 pages
that week. Normally, I pay $634 for 16 pages, but I use color on only
four pages instead of eight. Adding four pages (two were in color but
that might as well as well be four)jumped the cost from $634 (including
delivery) to $1050.
The bottom line is the price should be $807.20, not $1,050. Had he just
said that I was getting a sweetheart of a deal and my rates would be
higher in the future, I would not and cannot have a beef - look for a
better deal, yes, but not have a beef. But to send me a price sheet
saying this is what our new rates are, then to turn around and charge me
30 percent more - no, IMO, this isn't fair. And it will be a sub-zero
day in July in Cincinnati before I'll pay this fee.
Mike
|
If you have a quote/price sheet, and the invoice is higher, then the
printer needs to explain what caused the variance and why you weren't
contacted before the job was run if the variance was going to be
significant. |
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Mike Koewler
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 7:36 am Post subject: Re: Is this fair or what? |
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Dave,
His explanation was... We didn't charge you enough so now we are.
I swear. I'm not dealing with just someone who fell off the turnip
truck, this character got hit by a semi truck after he bounced off the
asphalt.
Mike
Dave Balderstone wrote:
| Quote: |
In article <516cc$4671fac7$42a1f80a$12163@FUSE.NET>, Mike Koewler
wordwiz@fuse.net> wrote:
Joe,
Sorry - another instance of I know what I mean, everyone should.
Here's the breakdown in prices:
PROCESS: FRONT BACK ˆ CENTER 16 PAGES BASE PRICE $574.05
ADDITIONAL M‚s $82.32 20 PAGES BASE PRICE $656.65 ADDITIONAL
M‚s $98.24 24 PAGES BASE PRICE $700.73 ADDITIONAL M‚s $107.57
28
PAGES BASE PRICE $779.75 ADDITIONAL M‚s $120.59 32 PAGES BASE
PRICE $827.45 ADDITIONAL M‚s $133.68
PROCESS: 8 PAGES
16 PAGES BASE PRICE $663.41 ADDITIONAL M‚s $ 85.02 20 PAGES BASE
PRICE $747.20 ADDITIONAL M‚s $100.96 24 PAGES BASE PRICE $791.80
ADDITIONAL M‚s $110.29 28 PAGES BASE PRICE $871.83 ADDITIONAL
M‚s
$123.31 32 PAGES BASE PRICE $920.01 ADDITIONAL M‚s $136.41
DELIVERY: $60.00
IOW, I was expecting to get a bill for $807, since I printed 20 pages
that week. Normally, I pay $634 for 16 pages, but I use color on only
four pages instead of eight. Adding four pages (two were in color but
that might as well as well be four)jumped the cost from $634 (including
delivery) to $1050.
The bottom line is the price should be $807.20, not $1,050. Had he just
said that I was getting a sweetheart of a deal and my rates would be
higher in the future, I would not and cannot have a beef - look for a
better deal, yes, but not have a beef. But to send me a price sheet
saying this is what our new rates are, then to turn around and charge me
30 percent more - no, IMO, this isn't fair. And it will be a sub-zero
day in July in Cincinnati before I'll pay this fee.
Mike
If you have a quote/price sheet, and the invoice is higher, then the
printer needs to explain what caused the variance and why you weren't
contacted before the job was run if the variance was going to be
significant. |
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Mike Koewler
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 7:58 am Post subject: Re: Is this fair or what? |
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Dave,
I wish I could answer all your and Tim's questions. My forte is not
prepress, simply delivering pdf files that require no extra work to print.
If this helps, the most pages the printer can do without doing another
section is 48. The most full color pages I am allowed is 24. I can add
pages, four at a time.
Normally, I have 16 pages, four of them in color (Front, Back, two
middle). The week in question, I had six (I know, I could have had
eight) but the sigs meant some pages that I simply do not need color
were black and white. The color pages were 4C, all sent as PDF/x1-a. The
black and white pages are created via Acrobat 5, using the printer's
profile. I've asked, several times (after each update of the program I
use to create the pages)if the pdf is okay or requires any extra work.
The answer is always that they are fine.
The press run is 2,800 copies. About four-five times a year, I do a
special issue with an extra 1,500-3,200 copies being printed. A full
page is 11x17, folded to 8.5x11. The live area is 15.5 x 9.625.
And FWIW, I pay in advance, meet my deadlines (okay, once every 4-8
weeks I'm 10 minutes late e-mailing them the files) and don't complain
if the colors are off. As I posted, I think I've complained about two,
maybe three times in more than 300 issues. Even then, only once was I
upset and Premier agreed their workers simply botched the job. But that
was a couple of years ago.
Perhaps, in some warped world, I'm a problem customer. If so, I would
like to know how so I can correct it.
Is there any other info I can provide? I don't want to be unfair, but I
am not about to let them decide to charge me 30 percent more for a paper
just because they want to.
Did I mention that in more than five years, not once has a CSR ever
called me, except now. I do think I have received maybe two e-mail
messages though.
Mike
Dave Balderstone wrote:
| Quote: |
In article <C2975F63.7398%tmonk@austin.rr.com>, Tim Monk
tmonk@austin.rr.com> wrote:
Devil's in the details. Sounds fair so far.....
More to go on??
Indeed...
Mike:
How many pages is your newspaper? How many flats are 4C, how many flats
are black only? Were the 4 pages 4C or other?
Does adding 4 pages to your paper mean the printer is adding a half
web, or is it being printed on a half web press?
How many signatures? Did adding 4 pages add a signature? What's the
capacity of the press?
What's the press run?
As an example, we're a tab size weekly running between 72 and 156
pages, depending on season. We run 30" (full web) and 15" (half web) 45
gsm newsprint with a 22 3/4" cutoff (so our folded size is 15" tall and
11 3/8" wide, sort of -- our cover sig is folded with a lip).
We go up or down in 8 page increments, where 16 pages is a full web and
8 pages is a half web.
The largest signature we can run 4C throughout is 32 pages. Color
demands affect the number of sigs we run.
We run about 70,000 copies.
To go from an 80 page paper to 88 pages (add 8 pages) for us is about
$1900 CAD. To keep the same page count and go from 2 signatures to 3
(because of color demands) is about $3200 CAD.
Without knowing a LOT more about your newspaper, there's no way to
advise you. |
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Dave Balderstone
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 8:22 am Post subject: Re: Is this fair or what? |
|
|
In article <85d17$46720e67$42a1f80a$19144@FUSE.NET>, Mike Koewler
<wordwiz@fuse.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
The press run is 2,800 copies. About four-five times a year, I do a
special issue with an extra 1,500-3,200 copies being printed. A full
page is 11x17, folded to 8.5x11. The live area is 15.5 x 9.625.
And FWIW, I pay in advance, meet my deadlines (okay, once every 4-8
weeks I'm 10 minutes late e-mailing them the files) and don't complain
if the colors are off. As I posted, I think I've complained about two,
maybe three times in more than 300 issues. Even then, only once was I
upset and Premier agreed their workers simply botched the job. But that
was a couple of years ago.
Perhaps, in some warped world, I'm a problem customer. If so, I would
like to know how so I can correct it.
Is there any other info I can provide? I don't want to be unfair, but I
am not about to let them decide to charge me 30 percent more for a paper
just because they want to.
|
Based on what you're telling me, I would call the sales rep and say
"The invoice doesn't match the price list. You need to adjust it,
because I'm not prepared to pay this invoice."
IMO, it's time to bring out the "vendor attitude adjustment tools".
But... "I pay in advance"??? WTF? Do you have bad credit for some
reason? |
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Mike Koewler
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 8:43 am Post subject: Re: Is this fair or what? |
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| Quote: |
But... "I pay in advance"??? WTF? Do you have bad credit for some
reason?
|
No, just always did this. When I bought the paper 10+ years ago, I left
a check with the pages (back then, the printer I was using would make
the film then the plate from a laser copy - talk about dot gain!) and
I've never seen a reason to change.
Is there something wrong with paying in advance? I guess there is - I
could find a different printer and pay Premier what they are rightfully
owed, but it's the way I was brought up - don't buy something you cannot
afford to pay for.
Besides, if I kick the bucket, my wife won't have to worry about paying
off any debt. I can't see any downside to this. But I didn't pay $1,050
for this job, I paid what the quoted price was.
It will be a sub-zero day in July in Cincinnati before I pay what they
are trying to charge.
Mike |
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Dave Balderstone
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 8:52 am Post subject: Re: Is this fair or what? |
|
|
In article <92ebb$467218e0$42a1f80a$5865@FUSE.NET>, Mike Koewler
<wordwiz@fuse.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
But... "I pay in advance"??? WTF? Do you have bad credit for some
reason?
No, just always did this. When I bought the paper 10+ years ago, I left
a check with the pages (back then, the printer I was using would make
the film then the plate from a laser copy - talk about dot gain!) and
I've never seen a reason to change.
|
Typically I'd expect 30 or 45 days from date of invoice.
| Quote: |
Is there something wrong with paying in advance? I guess there is - I
could find a different printer and pay Premier what they are rightfully
owed, but it's the way I was brought up - don't buy something you cannot
afford to pay for.
|
There's nothing wrong, it's just uncommon in today's business climate.
| Quote: |
Besides, if I kick the bucket, my wife won't have to worry about paying
off any debt. I can't see any downside to this. But I didn't pay $1,050
for this job, I paid what the quoted price was.
|
So you've paid the list price IN ADVANCE, and they want you to pay more?
I know the two words I'd use in conversation with the sales rep.
| Quote: |
It will be a sub-zero day in July in Cincinnati before I pay what they
are trying to charge.
|
Based on what you're telling me, they've screwed up a good relationship. |
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Mike Koewler
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 8:59 am Post subject: Re: Is this fair or what? |
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Tim Monk wrote:
| Quote: |
I'd give you my shop's number if I wasn't afraid that you were a
problem-child customer. We don't print newspapers, anyway.
|
Yep, as I have posted I'm probably a problem child. I send in files by
the deadline, files they don't have a problem printing. Pay in advance.
Rarely (once every 100 jobs) complain. Donate more than $35,000/yr. to
their revenue source.
The problem is that there really are very, very few printers who do
newsprint in the Cincy area. And unlike a print job where the total
poundage is a couple hundred pounds, shipping 2,600-6,000 papers will
cost money, plus time. I need to get the papers on a Wednesday, but need
to be able to send the files on a Tuesday.
I'm simply pissed that these people, or at least this turnip-brained CSR
is trying to claim he has the right to charge me 20 percent more than
what they should be.
I figure, from the way he has acted (telling me they have more than
enough business) that he is the boss' son or son-in-law who got hired
because the family was tired of supporting him.
Mike
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Mike Koewler
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 9:04 am Post subject: Re: Is this fair or what? |
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Dave Balderstone wrote:
| Quote: |
Based on what you're telling me, they've screwed up a good relationship.
|
I hope not. Premier does a great job and their prepress people are good.
If I screw up and forget to change the date at the top of the page,
Kelly will call me and ask if it is okay to change it (which has forced
me to make sure that part is correct!).
I will let you know what the bosses say, if they respond. And if they
don't - they will have some free press time.
Mike |
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Dave Balderstone
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 9:31 am Post subject: Re: Is this fair or what? |
|
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In article <34a07$46721db9$42a1f80a$8039@FUSE.NET>, Mike Koewler
<wordwiz@fuse.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
Dave Balderstone wrote:
Based on what you're telling me, they've screwed up a good relationship.
I hope not. Premier does a great job and their prepress people are good.
If I screw up and forget to change the date at the top of the page,
Kelly will call me and ask if it is okay to change it (which has forced
me to make sure that part is correct!).
I will let you know what the bosses say, if they respond. And if they
don't - they will have some free press time.
|
The only other advice I would give is you is "don't be a dick".
Be calm and controlled. Stick to your concern, which seems to be "I was
given a price list, the invoice wasn't in tune with that, and I'm
prepared to move my business if this isn't corrected."
Don't get upset, or bluster, or threaten. Just be matter of fact. Tell
them what you think is wrong, and what you expect them to do to fix the
problem. |
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Dave Balderstone
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 9:32 am Post subject: Re: Is this fair or what? |
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|
In article <82cfd$46721c7c$42a1f80a$7441@FUSE.NET>, Mike Koewler
<wordwiz@fuse.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
The problem is that there really are very, very few printers who do
newsprint in the Cincy area. And unlike a print job where the total
poundage is a couple hundred pounds, shipping 2,600-6,000 papers will
cost money, plus time. I need to get the papers on a Wednesday, but need
to be able to send the files on a Tuesday.
|
Have you priced the job with a sheet-fed printer? |
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